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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by RDJUser View Post
    20 years I've been into Internet-radio and Its rare to hear of a station making a profit. Most of the stations I see have begging bowls to cover their costs each month.
    So how much per month are most of you spending?

    My first week on here I did TONS of research, but took the last week off to get back to my day-to-day life and my primary business. So I have forgotten some of the numbers already.

    I do recall that licensing was by far the largest expense to running an Internet radio station - especially proper/legal/ethical licensing. (Live365 is gonna get their ass sued off some day soon...)

    For just pure web hosting costs it doesn't seem like it would be too bad.

  2. #22
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    I'm spending very little doing my hobby. I'm doing it on the cheap because to me its a hobby.

    To run a really successful station you need to remember TLH (Total listening hours) The more TLH you have the more you will pay each month.

    I can't remember the streaming rates but last i saw I think it was $0.018 per listener per performance with people listening to your stream.

    its not cheap to run a stream.
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  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by RDJUser View Post
    I'm spending very little doing my hobby. I'm doing it on the cheap because to me its a hobby.

    To run a really successful station you need to remember TLH (Total listening hours) The more TLH you have the more you will pay each month.

    I can't remember the streaming rates but last i saw I think it was $0.018 per listener per performance with people listening to your stream.

    its not cheap to run a stream.
    I just checked with a stream provider, and they said that if I do the licensing myself, they can offer up to 50,000 TLH for like $80/month, which is "cheap" in my book.

    When I originally posted here, I was thinking I'd need 100 concurrent listeners between 7:00am and 10:00pm plus overnight so around 1,600 TLH per day and around 50,000 TLH per month. I think I calculated that would cost me around US$30,000 per year, which isn't a problem if you can sell more than that - in my case - of my products and services.

    But, alas, that is the magic number I am trying to get confirmation on... How many concurrent listeners do you need on average to have enough traffic to be able to get the momentum you need to sell things? (Which is what I was trying to ask in my OP.)

  4. #24
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    To make an internetstream successful I see 2 options ...
    If the stream is related to a FM or AM station who broadcast for a region
    If the stream is pointed to a certain public who is living in a specific region.

    However an internetstream has a wide range of listeners, most often people from other regions and countries.
    Point is, if too much people from outside of the region are listening the commercial impact disappears.
    So it ain't that easy to create a simultaneous amount of listeners who are listening to "all content" (music & commercials) for reason that many of them are not related with some of the content of the station.

    What ever some stations publish about their figures of listeners, none of them can tell the real thruth.
    Why ?
    Stream stats show the amount of traffic, hits on the stream and the daily listening hours.
    However many of the hits on a stream are generated by bots who are visiting the stream ... Bots can be part of stream ripper software who only connect to rip a specific song.

    If Your stream is pointed to a specific public and / or region You can achieve "a public".
    However "that public" isn't made in one day, one week, neither in one Month ... It takes time.
    You gonna need a lot of exposure to succeed. What kind of music do they like ? Do they like a back to back playlist if a host is on air ? etc ...
    Playing commercials in between can mean that some of them disconnect ... unless Your public is trusted with those compagnies.

    I agree that making radio isn't anymore as it was done in de "golden era" of radio (end 50s, 60s & 70s).
    Those days, radio had still that thing called the magic of radio ... To be honest, those days are gone. Radio is made on an other level.
    To many radio's became a kind of wallpaper. Their genre of music, the lesser talk - the better, and the least interruptions as possible.

    The range of people who are interesting for a project is an audience between 30 and 45 Years, those who consume, those who have the money to buy things ...
    However most of them are addicted to platforms such as Spotify for reason that they can play their own choice of music.
    Sad ... I know, but that's part of the reality.
    Above the age of 45 untill 65 there are still people who prefer radio as it was known, but they prefer an other style / genre of music.

    So my conclusion is once again ... You have to make a blueprint of Your general public of the region where You are living.
    Example :
    If Your region has 1 Million potential listeners, check how many people are in the age ranges.
    If they match with Your supposed audience, how much of them are interested in radio.
    If they are interested in radio, how much of them like a specific genre, or do they like a general CHR format.
    To achieve that data You gonna need to make a plan, that way You gonna create an insight to what You are willing to achieve.
    The only way to do this is to set up a survey ... How do You gonna reach all of them so that they can enter their ideas to your survey.

    If You can link Your project to an existing business, its gonna be possible to reach some of what "could" be your audience.
    However the days are gone that so known friends gonna listen to the stream ... Yes, they say We gonna listen, but after 1 day they are back to their common things that they're used to do.

    What You are willing to achieve is a very difficult exercise between the pro and cons.
    You have talked already a lot that money isn't a problem ... In fact once Your stream is online, a software license only has a one time cost, the internet upstream is managed by your internet provider (most of them offer these days unlimited traffic) ... and the Monthly royalties ...
    What gonna be the results of the "cost-benefits' ?

    If all of the above is managed You can decide to start Your project with the desire to make some money with it.
    For reason that it is an internet only project a customer can ask to play their commercials more often in a rotation of 12 times or more a day.
    The costs to the customer of that rotation gonna be not equal to what should be paid on a regular local FM or AM station.
    The income for You gonna be much lower, however the customer wants a high return.

    I love Your enthusiasm and Your drive but I'm afraid that You gonna loose some of it during the preparations and / or during the runnin of Your project.
    Just remind Yourself that the way that people are listening (aka consume) music is way different than lets say 20 Years ago ... Its even worser if You compair it to the world of "real radio" since the 50s untill the 90s.

    Its not a shame to be a hobbyist.
    Most of those hobbyists are people with decades of experience in radio and who are willing to bring back a small part of their type of radio.
    As former professional I know that radio is a very tough world ... Most of them are doing it, but less do succeed.

    If You have made a plan, lets call it a blueprint of what You are willing to achieve, feel free to share it.
    At that moment We can give You input and feedback to make it even better, but please don't expect miracles.
    Quote Originally Posted by streamingnewbie View Post
    I just find it sad that apparently everyone on this forum has decided that an Internet radio station is only for hobbyists.
    Maybe it is impossible to succeed - I don't know.
    Just would have expected people that do something to have more hope that a positive outcome is possible.
    It's a free world, and you are entitled to your world view.
    Just not what I was expecting...
    Last edited by GKIye; 03-15-2020 at 09:29 PM. Reason: Typo
    Visit and listen @ BW !



  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by GKIye View Post
    To make an internetstream successful I see 2 options ...
    If the stream is related to a FM or AM station who broadcast for a region
    If the stream is pointed to a certain public who is living in a specific region.
    Well, a terrestrial station is not an option right now.

    But, yes, I have been thinking that if I created an Internet radio station that was targeted to where I grew up in the Midwest (i.e. market of 700,00+). That is a decent crowd, and one that I can intimately relate to and them to me, and if people from other parts of the U.S. join in, no problems because 1.) The music would be "universal" here in the U.S., and 2.) My primary business - which is the advertiser - applies to everyone in the U.S. and developed world!



    Quote Originally Posted by GKIye View Post
    However an internetstream has a wide range of listeners, most often people from other regions and countries.
    Point is, if too much people from outside of the region are listening the commercial impact disappears.
    So it ain't that easy to create a simultaneous amount of listeners who are listening to "all content" (music & commercials) for reason that many of them are not related with some of the content of the station.
    Understood, but in my case I think I could cater things to extend past my immediate area with no real issues. (If I was soliciting advertisers from the local area - say a restaurant - then yes, it would fall off for people 1,000 miles away.)



    Quote Originally Posted by GKIye View Post
    What ever some stations publish about their figures of listeners, none of them can tell the real thruth.
    Why ?

    Stream stats show the amount of traffic, hits on the stream and the daily listening hours.

    However many of the hits on a stream are generated by bots who are visiting the stream ... Bots can be part of stream ripper software who only connect to rip a specific song.
    True.


    Quote Originally Posted by GKIye View Post
    If Your stream is pointed to a specific public and / or region You can achieve "a public".
    However "that public" isn't made in one day, one week, neither in one Month ... It takes time.
    Understood.



    Quote Originally Posted by GKIye View Post
    You gonna need a lot of exposure to succeed. What kind of music do they like ? Do they like a back to back playlist if a host is on air ? etc ...
    Playing commercials in between can mean that some of them disconnect ... unless Your public is trusted with those compagnies.
    Well, the longer term goal would be to make the "advertisements" from my primary business be more "conversational" than "hard-selling" advertisements, if you follow me?

    And that is why I am investigating this whole Internet radio station idea - to create a platform where regular listeners come to primarily listen to music and radio shows, and where I can - as a trusted friend - make recommendations for my primary business AND also have mini-shows where I can educate people on various topics related to my primary business.


    Quote Originally Posted by GKIye View Post
    I agree that making radio isn't anymore as it was done in de "golden era" of radio (end 50s, 60s & 70s).
    Those days, radio had still that thing called the magic of radio ... To be honest, those days are gone. Radio is made on an other level.
    To many radio's became a kind of wallpaper. Their genre of music, the lesser talk - the better, and the least interruptions as possible.
    Well, I'm not looking to create a DJ that yacks away all day, but rather a "friend" who helps transition between long blocks of music and who is your "guide" educating you about the music, someone you feel you can relate to too, someone who is a friendly voice in the background in a good way.


    Quote Originally Posted by GKIye View Post
    The range of people who are interesting for a project is an audience between 30 and 45 Years, those who consume, those who have the money to buy things ...
    However most of them are addicted to platforms such as Spotify for reason that they can play their own choice of music.
    Sad ... I know, but that's part of the reality.
    I agree with you, but still ask this...

    How can you know what you like if you only rely on your own knowledge?

    In the past, a *good* DJ was a musical reference librarian that turned ou on to new artists, albums, songs and taught you about the stories behind the music to open your mind to all that is out there.

    iHeart radio and Spotify will NEVER be able to do that.

    It would be analogous to an American wanting to travel to Greece or the Philippines or China for the first time, knowing nothing about these places/cultures, and just "winging it"?!

    Without a travel agent/tour guide - or DJ in my case - you would miss so much...


    Quote Originally Posted by GKIye View Post
    Above the age of 45 untill 65 there are still people who prefer radio as it was known, but they prefer an other style / genre of music.
    The question is, "Are they too old to still buy things?"

    And can the 35-45 group be "educated" and thus "saved"?

    (I see the < 35 crowd as drones that can never be saved...)


    Quote Originally Posted by GKIye View Post
    So my conclusion is once again ... You have to make a blueprint of Your general public of the region where You are living.
    Example :
    If Your region has 1 Million potential listeners, check how many people are in the age ranges.
    If they match with Your supposed audience, how much of them are interested in radio.
    If they are interested in radio, how much of them like a specific genre, or do they like a general CHR format.
    To achieve that data You gonna need to make a plan, that way You gonna create an insight to what You are willing to achieve.
    The only way to do this is to set up a survey ... How do You gonna reach all of them so that they can enter their ideas to your survey.
    I could create a survey, and "hit the pavement" and survey real people in person - have already considered doing that.


    Quote Originally Posted by GKIye View Post
    If You can link Your project to an existing business, its gonna be possible to reach some of what "could" be your audience.
    Howver the days are gone that so known friends gonna listen to the stream ... Yes, they say We gonna listen, but after 1 day they are back to their common things that they're used to do.
    Well, I am getting ahead of myself, because my primary business has not gone live yet. But once it does, and assuming it takes off, then I can give more serious thought to this whole Internet radio thing.

    I will say that my target audience is moms and families, so I think that is a fairly stable and predictable population. And combined with starting off targeting a region - as you suggest - and by doing preliminary market research, it seems to me that there is potential for making this work.

    (Would be a hell of a lot easier if the licensing costs weren't so damn much!!)



    Quote Originally Posted by GKIye View Post
    What You are willing to achieve is a very difficult exercise between the pro and cons.
    You have talked already a lot that money isn't a problem ...
    No, $$$ is a problem if I have more money going out than coming in!!!

    I was saying that I would be willing to spend, say, $30,000/year in licensing if I made $50,000 in revenue.



    Quote Originally Posted by GKIye View Post
    In fact once Your stream is online, a software license only has a one time cost, the internet upstream is managed by your internet provider (most of them offer these days unlimited traffic) ... and the Monthly royalties ...
    What gonna be the results of the "cost-benefits' ?
    Not sure what you mean.

    The goal is that I run my own "advertisements" / promotions / educational spots on my Internet radio station, and that I have enough listeners, and more specifically enough listeners who are interested in my advertising, to click-through to my primary business's website and that they make a purchase.

    If it cost my $60/hour to pay for licensing, and every hour I could sell a one-year subscription to my business which runs $60, then I will have broken even, and I would be very happy. If I could sell two $60 subscription in that hour, then I have a profit, although my initial goal is for this Internet radio station to be a vehicle to PROMOTE my primary business and get enough traffic to that site so that my primary business can sell itself.

    (Why do you think major corporations that have no affiliation with sports spend hndeds of millions of $$ on sporting complexes? Name recognition!!)



    Quote Originally Posted by GKIye View Post
    If all of the above is managed You can decide to start Your project with the desire to make some money with it.
    For reason that it is an internet only project a customer can ask to play their commercials more often in a rotation of 12 times or more a day.
    The costs to the customer of that rotation gonna be not equal to what should be paid on a regular local FM or AM station.
    The income for You gonna be much lower, however the customer wants a high return.
    Remember, "I" am the customer and the only customer...



    Quote Originally Posted by GKIye View Post
    I love Your enthusiasm and Your drive but I'm afraid that You gonna loose some of it during the preparations and / or during the runnin of Your project.
    Yeah, I can see it is already an uphill journey!!



    Quote Originally Posted by GKIye View Post
    Just remind Yourself that the way that people are listening (aka consume) music is way different than lets say 20 Years ago ... Its even worser if You compair it to the world of "real radio" since the 50s untill the 90s.
    Yes, I see that.

    But why did that happen?

    People typically do not switch away from things they love, right?

    Most people only leave the comfort of something they have known for the "unknown" if 1.) The "known" no longer satisfies them, or 2.) the "unknown" looks so superior that they deem it worth the risk to switch.

    Agree or disagree?

    So I think why people switched to iHeart Radio and then Spotify - besides novelty - is that they felt that traditional radio was failing them.

    If I could create an Internet radio station that capture some of the "magic" that radio provided in the past, and could at least somewhat compete with newer ways of listening, then maybe I could convince some of those lost souls to "come home"?

    What do you think?



    Quote Originally Posted by GKIye View Post
    Its not a shame to be a hobbyist.
    Most of those hobbyists are people with decades of experience in radio and who are willing to bring back a small part of their type of radio.
    As former professional I know that radio is a very tough world ... Most of them are doing it, but less do succeed.
    If being a "hobbyist" means being an "artist", then I agree.

    But if being a "hobbyist" means being an "amateur" then that is NOT what I personally am trying to do.

    It seems like a lot of people I have spoken to fall into the second category, which is their right, but just not what I aspire to do.

    I agree that the odds are starting to seem insurmountable, but I haven't given up yet.



    Quote Originally Posted by GKIye View Post
    If You have made a plan, lets call it a blueprint of what You are willing to achieve, feel free to share it.
    At that moment We can give You input and feedback to make it even better, but please don't expect miracles.
    I think I have shared much of my "blueprint" above in this response and in other posts I have made.

    If you have questions, or need clarifications, please let me know. :-)

  6. #26
    GKIye's Avatar
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    By reading Your current explanation it creates to Me more and more the idea that You are in need for an on demand project.
    On demand can means 2 things ...
    The making of song requests by a listener who can be managed in real time
    Or understood as requesting content by content / product in real time.

    The setup of the second option don't requires a streaming "radio" project.
    It can be made at a website where visitors can see and / or hear info about what they are looking for.
    This can be done by developing a platform at Your website.
    However at that moment You get near to a podcast.
    Its my point of view after following and reading all of Your descriptions that podcast can offer You a solution.

    Yep, way different to radio, but by using a podcast You can reach a target audience.
    However there are tons of podcasts, both as audio and as video.
    Positive is that some type of podcasts have their platforms were they are presented to a public.
    In fact YouTube is about the largest platform for what could be seen as video podcasts ... but at YouTube they call them tutorials.
    Making a search for a specific subject / topic with the main goal to find the "right" tutorials is sometimes an incredible journey to succeed to find content who is close enough to what people are searching for.

    We all have the experiences that by watching or listening to a tutorials / podcasts is mostly "themself" talking to a microphone with mostly the result that at the end the viewer / listener has learned ... nothing.

    A USA contact of Me that I ever first met early 2000 has made a living of it.
    He has his own website, his professional Facebook profile and his YouTube channel.
    Check out his channel and see if that is what You are looking for ... https://www.youtube.com/user/rokkproductions/videos
    Important is that since day 1 he is managing everything by his own ... The making of the content untill the production of each video.

    Basically he is an artist, made songs etc ... and started at a moment in time real heavy labor at an offshore compagny.
    The money that he urned has been invested in what he is doing right now.
    He started the heavy labor after his house was burned down during a fire into his neighbourhood.
    So he started all over again from scratch and he succeeded so far in what he is doing.

    I can be wrong, but I get the feeling that my current info offers You some details for what You are looking for.
    Visit and listen @ BW !



  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by GKIye View Post
    By reading Your current explanation it creates to Me more and more the idea that You are in need for an on demand project.
    On demand can means 2 things ...
    The making of song requests by a listener who can be managed in real time
    Or understood as requesting content by content / product in real time.
    Because I am a company of one, I would need to start off with an automated radio station. However, I want to run MY ads and also intertwine MY content. But everything would need to be automated, unless I was making so much $$$ that I could quit my day job and be a DJ all day.



    Quote Originally Posted by GKIye View Post
    The setup of the second option don't requires a streaming "radio" project.
    It can be made at a website where visitors can see and / or hear info about what they are looking for.
    This can be done by developing a platform at Your website.
    However at that moment You get near to a podcast.
    Its my point of view after following and reading all of Your descriptions that podcast can offer You a solution.
    Well, my website WILL have podcasts on it. So that is already something in the works.

    The Internet radio station is something on the side, and my hope was just another means to indirectly draw people to my primary business - while having fun along the way.



    Quote Originally Posted by GKIye View Post
    Yep, way different to radio, but by using a podcast You can reach a target audience.
    I agree a podcast could be effective on its own.



    Quote Originally Posted by GKIye View Post
    However there are tons of podcasts, both as audio and as video.
    Positive is that some type of podcasts have their platforms were they are presented to a public.
    In fact YouTube is about the largest platform for what could be seen as video podcasts ... but at YouTube they call them tutorials.
    Making a search for a specific subject / topic with the main goal to find the "right" tutorials is sometimes an incredible journey to succeed to find content who is close enough to what people are searching for.

    We all have the experiences that by watching or listening to a tutorials / podcasts is mostly "themself" talking to a microphone with mostly the result that at the end the viewer / listener has learned ... nothing.
    Well, I am building a "brand" and so people will find me from my website, and not YouTube. (Although maybe I will use YouTube to host my podcasts and videos.)



    Quote Originally Posted by GKIye View Post
    A USA contact of Me that I ever first met early 2000 has made a living of it.
    He has his own website, his professional Facebook profile and his YouTube channel.
    Check out his channel and see if that is what You are looking for ... https://www.youtube.com/user/rokkproductions/videos
    Important is that since day 1 he is managing everything by his own ... The making of the content untill the production of each video.
    All I see are 3 rap videos...



    Quote Originally Posted by GKIye View Post
    Basically he is an artist, made songs etc ... and started at a moment in time real heavy labor at an offshore compagny.
    The money that he urned has been invested in what he is doing right now.
    He started the heavy labor after his house was burned down during a fire into his neighbourhood.
    So he started all over again from scratch and he succeeded so far in what he is doing.
    Where does he live?


    Quote Originally Posted by GKIye View Post
    I can be wrong, but I get the feeling that my current info offers You some details for what You are looking for.
    Podcasts are already in my plans.

    However I would still love to have a *successful* Internet radio station as well.

  8. #28
    GKIye's Avatar
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    Thats strange ...
    His YouTube profile shows a complete archive of all his video's ...
    Try to start at his about section ... https://www.youtube.com/user/rokkproductions/about and after that click the tab "Videos"

    Ronnie is living at Lafayette - Louisiana 70507
    Quote Originally Posted by streamingnewbie View Post
    All I see are 3 rap videos...
    Where does he live?
    Visit and listen @ BW !



  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by GKIye View Post
    Thats strange ...
    His YouTube profile shows a complete archive of all his video's ...
    Try to start at his about section ... https://www.youtube.com/user/rokkproductions/about and after that click the tab "Videos"

    Ronnie is living at Lafayette - Louisiana 70507
    Yeah, I see his videos now.

    @GKIye, you never told me where you are located. :-)

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