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  1. #21
    tjmarx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saint View Post
    That is the million dollar question.

    The concept of having a International body responsible for royalties makes far too much sense.

    Why you ask ?

    1. Each national organization can "dictate" terms as they see fit, regardless of what other national organizations are doing.

    2. Each national organization is only accountable to itself. There is no international regulatory oversite.

    3. Creative accounting principals can be used to maximize retained royalties vs actually paying those royalties out to artists.
    Actually saint being that there is no such thing as an international government (The UN doesn't count, it's more of a joke than anything) creating an international organisation would benefit them from an accounting point, because the only people they would be accountable to then would be their incumbent artists. They would actually be a LOT more free by setting up such an organisation.

    What I suppose would be the big thing holding them back is the lack of enforcement. The same lack of international government that would provide them freedom, would also remove any enforceability they might have. So if you didn't get a license and pay royalties there wouldn't be much they could do about it.

    But perhaps by registering the international organisation as the licensing authority for webcasters inside of every country they wish to collect royalties from then they would get the enforcement they require. It is a sticky issue, I can see it has a few problems with it, but certainly a model for an international licensing authority must be achieved else they will find they become irrelevant and webcasting will become the new legal mined field that peer-2-peer was and still is.

  2. #22
    tjmarx's Avatar
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    Oh and saint, I already suggested to ARPA in the letter I sent to them before posting this threat that an international authority for webcasters would make far greater sense. But I do think your idea is brilliant. Everyone else should certainly do the same and suggest an international authority. I doubt they'll listen, but you never know til you try.

  3. #23
    johny c's Avatar
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    In New Zealand , APRA also handle the payments here. 'Shops do NOT have a list, Club's & bar's DONT supply lists for the bands that play in them, there are many Country Music Clubs that DONT have to have a list. LPFM radio stations DONT have to show lists. All these place's are charged a blanket yearly fee by APRA. Now tell me how do they know who to pay all that money to.

    ........"Top Music Top of the Dial"
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  4. #24
    saint's Avatar
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    tjmarx

    If your national "collections" association does not want to give you global coverage that is commiserate with fellow broadcasters from around the world, then lodge a complain with your MP and the WTO. This is a trade / licensing issue.

    A broadcaster in New Zealand should pay the same as a broadcaster in the UK as a broadcaster should pay in the USA . etc etc etc. Why should it cost more to broadcast in country A than in country B. This is not about bandwidth usage - it about royalty payments folks. Do artists in country A deserve more money because they broadcast in country A than in country B ? Ummm, what is wrong with that picture ? I would equate a higher royalty payment as a higher "export" tarrif and for some countries - you can't even export the stream - because your "export tarrif" is for internal use only.

    Did you know in the United States that the Government DOES control the royalty rates for webcasters ? I would hazard a guess that other countries have governmental "input" that dictates their webcasting rates as well.

    The choice is entirely up to you as a broadcaster, you can choose not to pay, you can choose to play silly games with your collections agency and hope they have everyones best interest at heart, or you can start making this a global trade / licensing issue.

    Do nothing and hope for the best, or start doing something now to make a difference.

    The choice is entirely up to you.

  5. #25
    tjmarx's Avatar
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    I know factually that retail outlets in Australia do have to provide a list to ARPA. I have no idea about their arrangements in Zealand however.

    Saint, ARPA is an industry association, it does not receive input from government outside of having to follow the same laws as any other company or organisation inside of Australia. I'd be interested to know Saint which part of the licensing the US government do control, as I'm aware in the US multiple licenses must be obtained, one being of course for copyright which is separate to the other licenses.

    I found this resource online, it covers how payments are handled in the US and who gets paid and how. I thought you guys might be interested in it seems there is a lot of talk about artists not getting paid.

    http://bandfoundry.draftlight.net/re...ense_types.php

  6. #26
    tjmarx's Avatar
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    Finally after several weeks I have received a reply from ARPA. Of course it doesn't answer all my questions and so I've had to write a reply and no doubt will wait another 6 or so weeks for ARPA to reply to that. But here is what they've said so far.

    Hi TJ,

    Thank you for your email, and apologies for the delay in getting back to you.

    We offer a range of Audio Webcast service licences depending on the nature of your website/service.
    If your website contains advertising or sponsorship, we would offer you a general licence where the licence fee would be based on a percentage of Gross Revenue (associated to your website) depending on the level of music use (described in the table below) subject to a minimum fee of $1293.60 (incl. GST) per quarter.

    Music Use Percentage
    Percentage of Gross Revenue (inc of GST)
    ≥90%
    5.500%
    80-89.99%
    4.290%
    60-79.99%
    3.355%
    40-59.99%
    2.420%
    25-39.99%
    1.54%
    <25%
    0.605%



    If your website will not contain advertising or sponsorship, but will be taken out under a company name, we have a limited Audio Webcast service licence available. The cost of this licence is $646.80 (incl. GST) per quarter for the first Audio Webcast Channel
    .

    Again, this licence does not allow for any advertising in-stream or onsite and is limited to 2 Audio webcast channels that must be available free of charge to the user.
    From what you have described below, your service would probably fit under this 'limited' licence.

    Being the content provider, it is your responsibility to take out a licence. Since you are an Australian resident, you would be required to take out an APRA|AMCOS licence. So you've come to the right place!

    If you would like more information, or a copy of the a licence agreement, please let me know and I will send it through.

    Apologies again for the delay.

    Kind regards,
    Aiona Fangupo
    Broadcast & Online Services
    APRA|AMCOS

    16 Mountain St, Ultimo NSW 2007
    Locked Bag 5000, Strawberry Hills NSW 2012

    P
    +61 2 9935 7947 F +61 2 9935 7996
    E
    afangupo@apra.com.au Wwww.apra-amcos.com.au

  7. #27
    tjmarx's Avatar
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    ARPA Reply

    I got the reply from ARPA much faster this time. The lady I have been speaking to at ARPA has gone down my last email to her and replied point for point. Still... I must say she has only answered questions very generally, in some cases not at all, even though I have been very specific about my situation. Anyway, the reply when like this.

    ------

    Hi Aiona,

    I have a few further questions about the Limited license if that's ok.
    Under that license can I still play the FREE advertising material for my
    OWN businesses and for businesses of DJ's and other station volunteers?


    If you are generating revenue from the service (i.e. selling advertising space, air-time or banner ads etc) - this is when a 'general' licence would be required. If you are simply promoting your own business in-stream or on-site then a 'limited general' licence should suffice.

    That is to say the station would not receive any revenue from the
    advertising in any form. Also, under this license would I be subject to
    a certain percentage of music content playable? Or is the license open
    to as much music content as is suitable to my station?


    The limited general licence is a blanket licence that is based on a flat fee, therefore music use percentage does not come in to play here. Although, we still do require quarterly music logs.

    Additionally
    when you say "taken out under a company name", does this mean the
    license requires the registration of an Australian Company &/or State
    Registration of a Business?

    Correct.

    Lastly, does this license cover the music being streamed to other
    countries? That is to say, if someone from the UK or the US for example
    were to listen to my stream would this license still cover it?


    The APRA|AMCOS licence can only cover services based within our Territory. Therefore you, being the content provider, based in Australia - we are in a position to offer you a licence for your service.
    -------

    The provisional need to form a company for what is essentially someone playing music and speaking over the internet from their house seems rather excessive to me. I can't quite understand why this is so, I could understand it if it was a station generating revenue, the need for being an incorporated company becomes obvious in that situation. But for a station receiving no income, this seems incredibly excessive.

    Especially given the price tag, rules and regulations in relation to forming an Australian Company. Being licensed to run an internet station from Australia seems to me quite impossible unless it's a commercial station which receives large amounts of revenue. I mean simply by being incorporated you have to add a money accountant fee. You also must hang a sign on the premises stating that it is where you're located. There are loads of other costs associated with it.

    Seriously, all I want to do is give the guys who made the music I play some money for me being able to play it. Not over complicate the whole situation.

  8. #28
    James's Avatar
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    APRA and their useless emails! They keep getting complicated, i swear they will blow up the internet if they keep going. :doh:

    Quote Originally Posted by tjmarx View Post
    I got the reply from ARPA much faster this time. The lady I have been speaking to at ARPA has gone down my last email to her and replied point for point. Still... I must say she has only answered questions very generally, in some cases not at all, even though I have been very specific about my situation. Anyway, the reply when like this.

    ------

    Hi Aiona,

    I have a few further questions about the Limited license if that's ok.
    Under that license can I still play the FREE advertising material for my
    OWN businesses and for businesses of DJ's and other station volunteers?

    If you are generating revenue from the service (i.e. selling advertising space, air-time or banner ads etc) - this is when a 'general' licence would be required. If you are simply promoting your own business in-stream or on-site then a 'limited general' licence should suffice.

    That is to say the station would not receive any revenue from the
    advertising in any form. Also, under this license would I be subject to
    a certain percentage of music content playable? Or is the license open
    to as much music content as is suitable to my station?

    The limited general licence is a blanket licence that is based on a flat fee, therefore music use percentage does not come in to play here. Although, we still do require quarterly music logs.

    Additionally
    when you say "taken out under a company name", does this mean the
    license requires the registration of an Australian Company &/or State
    Registration of a Business?

    Correct.

    Lastly, does this license cover the music being streamed to other
    countries? That is to say, if someone from the UK or the US for example
    were to listen to my stream would this license still cover it?

    The APRA|AMCOS licence can only cover services based within our Territory. Therefore you, being the content provider, based in Australia - we are in a position to offer you a licence for your service.
    -------

    The provisional need to form a company for what is essentially someone playing music and speaking over the internet from their house seems rather excessive to me. I can't quite understand why this is so, I could understand it if it was a station generating revenue, the need for being an incorporated company becomes obvious in that situation. But for a station receiving no income, this seems incredibly excessive.

    Especially given the price tag, rules and regulations in relation to forming an Australian Company. Being licensed to run an internet station from Australia seems to me quite impossible unless it's a commercial station which receives large amounts of revenue. I mean simply by being incorporated you have to add a money accountant fee. You also must hang a sign on the premises stating that it is where you're located. There are loads of other costs associated with it.

    Seriously, all I want to do is give the guys who made the music I play some money for me being able to play it. Not over complicate the whole situation.

  9. #29
    tjmarx's Avatar
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    Finally the hidden truth starts to be revealed. Don't worry chaps, I'll get to the truth even if it takes me a year to do so. Disgusted with ARPA's fees and still without my main question answered I replied to their last email. This is what I got back

    ----

    Hi Aiona,

    Thanks for your reply. You actually didn't answer my last question in
    relation to whether I'm covered for other parts of the world as well. I
    understand being an Australian resident means I need to get a license
    from ARPA/AMCOS but what I DON'T know is whether or not I need to obtain
    a license in other countries as well.

    - If you are setting up a UK website or US website (i.e. - co.uk or a .com), you would be required to take out a separate licence within each of their territories.

    Also, can you please advise me why in the UK through the PPL a
    webcasting license for my situation would cost 238 pounds (approximately
    $500AU) for the entire year, without need to set up a company. While in
    Australia I'm being forced to pay over $600 every 3 months for my
    license, plus set up a company, which under ASIC laws must be
    incorporated which means a monthly accountant fee as well, all so I can
    play music over the internet from my home, and from the homes of the
    volunteers who want to get involved. That sounds sorta wrong to me
    that there is such a massive difference in price between countries to do
    the exact same thing.

    - The licence fees for APRA|AMCOS webcast licenses are standard across the board. The licence fees are in line with similar licences already in place for online services locally and overseas. We feel that the fees reflect the true value of musical works being used in webcast services.

    However, in saying that - There is another tier of Audio webcast licensing available, which is a 'private individual' licence. You can take up this option if you would like to take the licence out in your personal name, it is limited to 1 Audio Webcast Channel and there is no sponsorship/advertising etc attached to the service. The cost of this licence is a flat fee of $517.00 (incl GST) per annum or part thereof.

    Please let me know if you think this licence would be better suited, and I can send you through the paperwork.


    ------

    So it seems there IS actually a comparable license for webcasters, it's just not advertised and they really don't want you to know about it. Perhaps they don't like the reach webcasters have.

    My question about licensing in different countries STILL hasn't been fully answered although we're at least half way there. So I've written back to ask her again what the deal is. I swear, I've given this woman all the information already I don't see why she can't answer such a basic question. I'm thinking it's probably because she's trying to get me to sign up for a license before she tells me I actually need one in every other country as well. lol

  10. #30
    johny c's Avatar
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    They are still ripping you off, why do they have different rules for the same company in another country as I pointed out before. http://www.apra.co.nz/html/music_uses.php?id=5141
    Low Power FM Broadcasters

    Low Power FM broadcasters are broadcasting services whose reception is limited by transmission power (under 500mW) and reception area. These services can be received on standard radio sets but according to MED specifications are available on guard band frequencies only. These services are generally funded by limited advertising or sponsorship.

    Broadcast Licence
    Licensees pay a set annual fee of $250 plus GST. The licence allows very limited revenue collection by the broadcaster - up to $10,000 per year.

    This licence now includes the option for Low Power Radio transmission via Internet simulcast. The licence fee is $450 plus GST per annum for both transmissions.

    It is envisaged that such stations should be non commercial and use advertising for cost recovery purposes only.

    We do not expect LPFM broadcasters to supply play list information although we retain the right to ask them to do so if necessary.

    Each station will provide a declaration each year stating that they did not collect more than $10,000 in revenue.
    .................................................. .................................................. ....................................
    And no we dont have to set up a company, as I said this is the same "APRA" As you can see by the rules above I dont have to supply a playlist. My point is, where's the money going to, who do they know who to pay my money to.

    ........"Top Music Top of the Dial"
    Click HERE to listen to my radio stream
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